I think that the minimum wage for 16 and 17 year olds is terrible. I know that they are not paying bills and buying household items but it means that if they have to pay lodge, or buy their own clothes they are going to be limited on everything else. Why is it that low? Then you get the MP's on an absolute fortune every year and they are claiming expenses when there are children working for as little as that. I think that everybodys minimum wage should be the same, (not including more qualified people of course) and it should be at least £6! Anyone agree?

Thanks for the comment, Kirsty. At 1.1.%, the October 2009 national minimum wage increase for 16 and 17 year olds (the youth rate) is set lower than the increases to the adult rate (for those aged 22 and over) and the development rate (for workers aged 18 to 21).

But encouragingly, there is evidence that some employers are going beyond the statutory pay floor for 16 and 17 year olds. A recent survey from IRS - http://www.xperthr.co.uk/article/91233/the-national-minimum-wage-10-years-on--employers-views.aspx (subscription required) - found that among employers who gave details of the hourly rate they pay to 16 and 17 year olds, the vast majority (84.2%) pay above the current minimum rate for this group (£3.53 per hour), with 17.4% of those answering this question paying £7 or more per hour.

Further, when asked what the current youth rate should be, almost three in 10 employers (28.4%) said they think 16 and 17 year olds should be paid at the same rate as adults.

As ever, we would be very interested to hear more on your views on this issue - whether you are an employer, a worker directly affected by the youth rate of the national minimum wage, or anybody else. Please leave comments in the box below.

As a small business owner and employer maybe I can answer some of Kirsty's questions from a very different perspective.

Firstly, I do remember being 16 myself (and paid very badly - it wasn't all that long ago!). I also agree that when some people (politicians, bankers etc...) are raking in shockingly large sums of money for jobs which don't appear to be very well done, it seems incredible that they can suggest other people (even 16 year olds with little experience) should only earn £3.53 an hour.

BUT, the number of people actually on the kind of salaries politicians get is really very small. Mean salaries are often quoted on the news, when what is really needed is the modal salary (the one most commonly earned) - I don't know what you recall about averages, but means can be very deceptive as a few extremely high (or extremely low) values can easily distort them. This is of course why politicians like to quote them!

Also, there are a great many people like myself running small businesses in the UK and employing people on a minimum wage, or close to it. At the moment the economic climate and high taxation/running costs mean many of us struggle to earn £4 an hour ourselves, especially when you consider that it's common for a small business person to put in a 60/70 hour+ week. As we are self employed we have no minimum wage to protect our earnings and the taxman/Vatman is only too happy to rob us, however poor our takings.

We also need to employ people, and are one of the biggest contributors to employing part time workers, especially students, mothers of young children, older people, ethnic minorities, people with second jobs etc... often the kind of employees no large company would touch. We honestly cannot afford to pay the kinds of salaries we'd like to, so from our point of view realistic minimum wages are unfortunately essential.

IF the Government was to give small businesses appropriate tax breaks (as many Governments do abroad) we'd be in a better position to reward our employeses as they deserve and minimum wages could be raised, particularly for younger workers.

Thanks very much indeed for your comment, Mike. You raise some very interesting points.

When it comes to the types of average used, the means can indeed be deceptive in certain circumstances. And while the modal average can be useful to some extent, the most representative measure of the average is usually the median. This is the midpoint or exact middle value in a range of numbers, and therefore is less likely to be distorted by extremely high values at the extreme ends of the sample.

We use the median here in all XpertHR and IRS statistical and pay data analysis.

The median is also used by the Office for National Statistics in its Annual Survey of Hours and Earnings (ASHE), which provides the most comprehensive snapshot of pay levels in the UK, and the findings of which also have some bearing on the Low Pay Commission's work in setting the national minimum wage each year.

The latest available ASHE data, relating to April 2008, find that the median hourly rate for UK workers (excluding overtime pay) is £11.87. By gender, the median rate for men is £12.50, compared with £10.91 for women.

The post-October 2009 national minimum wage adult rate of £5.73 per hour will therefore still be set at less than half the median hourly rate (excluding overtime) for all UK workers of £11.87 per hour.

You also raise an interesting point about the tax obligations on small business owners and their impact on the ability to pay in line with the national minimum wage. We would be particularly interested to hear from any other small business owners or employees about these issues, via the Comments box below.

i think this wage is terrible for 16-17 year old they have to work alot of hours to achieve the amount of money they need some individuals have to live by themselves at this age and they can only work so many hours because of training of being a college, this is not accseptable.

Thanks for your comment, Jodie. While the national minimum wage for 16 and 17 year olds certainly does not represent a king's ransom, at least they are covered by a statutory minimum amount. Many interns are not so lucky in 2009: http://www.xperthr.co.uk/blogs/employment-intelligence/2009/08/2010-national-minimum-wage-rep.html

If you have any concerns about the national minimum wage, please remember that there is an official minimum wage helpline for employees, run by HM Revenue and Customs. The number is 0845 6000 678 and it is open from 9 to 5 on Monday to Friday. Further guidance is available here: http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/Employees/Pay/DG_10027201

5.57 is a lot for youths i remember in 1992 i was getting £30 a week thats all that was for 40hrs week tree felling hard work thats about 0.80 hr so be thankfull.......

Thank you very much for your comment, Anthony. That sounds like very hard work indeed!

I think people for get how much things have gone up since "there day and age" yes my mum also speaks of how little she got paid back in those days but to buy things these days are a lot more expensive and people forget that I bet if you think what you could get in those days for even £10 would take you a lot further than it would in these days, to buy a house was about 10,000 cheaper. I’m a 19 year old working full time for virgin (Richard Branson) i get paid 5.15 hour which is so little for me to live on. My Dad passed away 12 years ago and IV had my mum to bring two kids up, my brother aged: 22 passed away also last year so now my mum feels to ill to work. So i have to pay for my phone bills, feed myself, clothes that’s needed as you grow out of them the supply a girl needs growing up, To buy myself a car to get to work, car insurance car tax, Petrol to get to work which takes most my salary and general day to day cost. People don’t realise how young and unlucky we are to have to fend for ourselves in these days having lost a parent or even parents, if i lost both my parents like some poeple out there i couldnt afford to buy all the things i do and pay rent. I couldn’t even if I wanted to think about leaving home as I couldn’t even afford rent at 40 hours a week on £5.15 this wage is so poor and if needed i cant even get a credit card to help out it gets me nothing at the end of every month specially working for a big company, at 19-20 years of age I’m a young adult that doesn’t have the chance to start a life with the costs of moving out because of the minimum wage I’m not even entitled to ask for a rise or to even if my mum got to depressed look after myself and my mum.

Thank you for sharing your story here, Jessica.

If it's any consolation to you, your employer is paying you above the current national minimum wage rate for those aged 18 to 21 (the development rate), which stands at £4.83 per hour with effect from last Thursday (1 October 2009).

And with effect from 1 October 2010 (when the next national minimum wage increase will come into effect), the main national minimum wage (adult) rate will be extended to apply to 21 year olds. The main (adult) rate currently applies to workers aged 22 and over and 21 year olds come under the development rate.

If you have any concerns about the national minimum wage, please remember that there is an official minimum wage helpline for employees, run by HM Revenue and Customs. The number is 0845 6000 678 and it is open from 9 to 5 on Monday to Friday. Further guidance is available here: http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/Employees/Pay/DG_10027201

Best wishes

Michael Carty

Why does everyone get different pay its not as if you are doing any less work because you are younger ther are older ppl in my work who do less work than me yet get a quid extra which isnt much but would all add up

Thanks for your comments, Stuart.

If you have any concerns about the national minimum wage, please remember that there is an official minimum wage helpline for employees, run by HM Revenue and Customs. The number is 0845 6000 678 and it is open from 9 to 5 on Monday to Friday. Further guidance is available here: http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/Employees/Pay/DG_10027201

You may also be interested to know that the Low Pay Commission (LPC) - which publishes recommendations on the level at which the Government should set the national minimum wage in its annual report - is currently undertaking a series of 'visits'. These will feed into its evidence-based approach to compiling the 2010 LPC report, which will set out its recommendations to the Government on the national minimum wage for 2010.

Details of the remaining visits for the 2010 report can be found here: http://www.lowpay.gov.uk/lowpay/Visits_information_for_the_web_site.DOC

Kind regards

Michael carty

i think the wage act is terrible you see all those high earners on big bucks and were on a low 5.80ph why is that i think it is unfair i mean ive got a house a wife and a kid and i have to settle for 5.80ph which is about 200 a week after tax then i have bills to pay and shopping and clothes for my child and ourselves its rediculous cause were always scraping for cash cause of the wage structure why cant we not all be paid the same as the rest of the big earners so we can have a good living life like use absolutley rediculous i think use need to have a look at yourselves and put everyone on the same salary.

Thanks for your comments, Darren.

If you have any concerns about the national minimum wage, please remember that there is an official minimum wage helpline for employees, run by HM Revenue and Customs. The number is 0845 6000 678 and it is open from 9 to 5 on Monday to Friday. Further guidance is available here: http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/Employees/Pay/DG_10027201

Kind regards

Michael carty

I'm 17 years old and the min wage is terrible. I do have to pay bills and look after myself with no help. I do the same job as people who are older than me and get paid so much less than they do and its so unfair. I seriously think that the min wage should be the same for everyone regardless of their age.

Thanks for your comment, anonymous, aged 17.

If you have any concerns about the national minimum wage, please remember that there is an official minimum wage helpline for employees, run by HM Revenue and Customs. The number is 0845 6000 678 and it is open from 9 to 5 on Monday to Friday. Further guidance is available here: http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/Employees/Pay/DG_10027201

You Work your butts out getting home late at night especially in this cold freezing weather just at least 3 times a week just to get what...that little sum of money at the end of two weeks. when i think of this i just feel like there is no point in doing the job because as most people say you do the same job as everyone you work with but you get different rates of pay, how is that fair. if only you were given less work to do as you were being paid less...then most could understand. really,i think our rates (16-17) should be increased to at least £4. Some serious talks needs to be done about this issues. Increase this rate please we. It will encourage me more; i don't know about others

Thank you very much indeed for your comment and for sharing your experience of what it is like to be on the receiving end of the national minimum wage rate for 16 and 17 years olds, Mabelle.

The CIPD has recently called for the national minimum wage rates paid to younger workers to be frozen in 2010/2011 (http://www.xperthr.co.uk/blogs/employment-intelligence/2010/01/national-minimum-wage-20102011-1.html), although the Government has yet to announce what the 2010/2011 national minimum wage increases will be.

Keep track of discussions around the 2010/2011 national minimum wage increase here: http://www.xperthr.co.uk/blogs/employment-intelligence/2009/09/what-can-we-expect-from-the-20.html

Kind regards

Michael

I am a small business owner and think that the NMW is an appropriate tool to use. In this terrible climate many businesses have not been able to survive and some of us are really struggling. We have not had a wage for over 1 year so that we can employ staff, keeping the business going, pay the men. We are in a position to look at taking some people on for a short term, the NMW gives us the opportunity to employ some people, who may not have been working for over a year, give them a trial at a new place of work, see their skills, without costing the company too much that it does not make economical sense (especially if the new employees need to gain confidence & may make some mistakes which still cost the company money) and then we look at each individual and if we are in a position to increase their hourly rate because their skills/workload dictates, then that is what we do.

As to being able to live and afford, perhaps people should not be having children if they are not in a position to provide for them at this time, they should be leaving it till they have established their career and can afford them.

Thank you very much indeed for your comment, Sue, and for sharing your experience of and views on the national minimum wage.

I'd be very interested indeed to hear from any other small business owners or employees, with regard to how the national minimum wage affects you.

Kind regards

Michael

It makes me laugh when I read of how 'little' someone got paid when they were younger. 25 years ago I was getting paid approximately £60-£70 a week for a 60 hour week, yet it covered my rent, my food, new clothes and socialising, so lets get it in perspective and remember that our wages covered our expenditure, unlike today.

Both my girls are now ready to move out of the family home (4 women [including my mother]under one roof is not good!). My eldest works 40-50 hours a week, working as hard as the next person, paying adult prices everywhere, yet at 20 years of age is not entitled to an adult wage. As such neither can afford to leave home, a home that is becoming increasingly more uncomfortable for all of us.

Isn't about time that anyone who has to pay their way as an adult should get the wage to go with it?

How is it that by the time both girls were 16 they were paying the adult price to get into the cinema or on the bus and yet get paid a second class wage? How is that by 18 they can work an adult job and do the adult hours yet get a second class wage? If you want our youths to become adults, then treat them like adults and give them the wage they deserve.

Thank you for your comment, Tracy.

If it is any consolation to you, it has been announced that the main (adult) rate of the national minimum wage will apply to 21 year olds from October 2010. At present, the main (adult) rate currently applies to workers aged 22 and over and 21 year olds come under the development rate.

Kind regards

Michael

Many thanks for the prompt reply Michael. I wasn't sure if this thread was still open after so long.

Whilst it may be of some consolation to my eldest who will be 21 in May, it's of little help to my youngest. It gives her little incentive to go out and look for more hours and/or a better job.

She went for a trial in a bar a few nights ago as a means to supplement her meagre wages. She'll be working til 2am doing the same work as the older youngsters working there yet still getting the pathetic minimum wage that her age group are entitled to. Little wonder she gets confused as to whether she is an adult or not.

it make you wonder how many firms who back the labour government.are setting the wage,s increase.s

i disagree, ok it might seem a little unfair but if the government can allow everyoine to atted further education for free or give everyone ema so they can maybe afford it they will all be on the high bucks. There is always goign to be some people better off, but if we were all earning the same everyone wont bother. Imagine if u were on a 6 figure salary and it had to be reduced because its unfair to the not well off people would you coplain then, i think so

Thank you very much for your comment, Anonymous.

I personally think they should either raise the NMW for 17-21 year olds, or change the ages. It's terrible that in many views of the law, you are an adult at 18, such as being able to buy cigarettes, alcohol, knives, sexually explicit material and some power tools, and yet, when it comes to being paid, you're not an adult untill you're 21. I'll be 20 in April, and my fiancee and I are moving into our own place soon, we also have 2 month old baby boy. It's disgraceful to think that the NMW hardly goes up, and yet tax, VAT, and inflation continue to rise. It's about time the government put it's people first.

I AM WORKING FOR A WELL KNOWN PHAMACY COMPANY AND BACK IN 209 I SPOKE TO MY AREA MANAGER AND ASKED FOR A PAY RISE HE SAID HES IN NOVEMBER BUT UNKNOWN TO ME THE THE GOVERMENT PUT THE MINIMUM WAGE UP TO £5.80 THAT WAS THE ONLY PAY RISE THAT I GOT NOT FROM THE COMPANY HOW TIGHT IS THAT.I THINK THAT THE MINIMUM WAGE SHOULD BE AT LEAST £6.50 PER HOUR.WHICH IS NOT TO BAD.

KEVIN CHANDLER

I actually think the wage should be the same for all employees. 16-17 year olds work the same amount of hours (full time) yet are recieving just over half of their wage. In all fairness, this is discrimination

put the min wage for 18 21 to at least £5:00 whats the point in the 83p may as well round it up people this age have got more rseponsability and need to be paid more